Project Dolphin Piracy Protection [Archive]

wildthing

Tue 18 May 1999, 13:05

Fake: Re DC.

Dreamcast software has never been copied yet, which is alright in one way since the quality of them is good enough that I am willing to pay for the games.

Also because everyone is paying for the games it has push the price down, especially in Hong Kong where the prices are now around HK$2xx.

Re: Copying DVDs, this hasn't been done, even the bootleg of Starwars and Titanic are just simple one layer discs. If it was worth pirating don't you think we will have pirate DVDs now? The bootleg were selling for approx HK$150 where a proper normal DVD cost around HK$35-$300, $180 for US imports.

I just don't thing they have the equipement yet.

colin phillips

Tue 18 May 1999, 15:04

wildthing: So whats DVD-RAM then?
Can't you run DVD-RAM discs on a normal DVD-ROM player? or not?

If you can't copy DVD's then you should'nt be able to make DVD's. This will always remain true for all storage mediums:

"What you can make, you can make again"
(make again = copy)

remember that, coz some pirates out there have the money to Create DC DVD'S , just by using the same method as what DC game manufacturers use to make the DC DVD'S.

The fact that people will be always copying games that are released on consoles doesn't put me off the idea of wanting to become a game developer!

/colin

FVSaX

Wed 19 May 1999, 02:01

Do you know that DC discs are a proprietary format that hold on gigabyte of data and is not the same thing as dvd?

wildthing

Wed 19 May 1999, 10:42

DVD Ram/RW are different to format and standard DVDs.
Most DVDdrive can not read DVD Ram/RW at the moment.

You cannot easily extract DATA from a DVD like for CDs.

So you can't go out and buy a DVD Writer to copy DVDs. Period. Go and read a DVD FAQ, this is why Hollywood has accepted the format, otherwise movie DVD would never of happened!

From what I heard about Dreamcast discs, GDROM and what I've tested.

3 distinctive tracks.
GDROM has audio/cdrom and the DC format of stuff.

Put a DC disc in a CD player, you will hear audio about "this is a DC game its designed for a DC etc in Japanese."

Put it in a CDROM, you will see a standard CDROM format, they sometimes put wallpaper, extras so you can use it on a PC.

The DC data is unreadable on a PC... so far.
Apparently there is a TOC for the DC data which is read from the outside to the inside of the GDROM. Standard CDROM format has TOC in the inside, and is read from inner to outer.

L8rs!

[This message has been edited by wildthing (edited 05-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by wildthing (edited 05-19-99).]

zldsc

Wed 19 May 1999, 22:49

Just for your information, DVDs are pirateable, and there are many places in China selling pirated DVD movies. I've been to China couple months ago and they have all kinds of latest pirated DVD movies, and they were not bootlegs, they were exactly like the real ones over here with dobly digital and 5.1 channel. And they were surprising cheap, only 30 yuan, which is a little less than $4.

I think Nintendo will try to encode their DVD in a way that normal DVD burner would not be able to read them, but sooner or later they will be pirated.

wildthing

Thu 20 May 1999, 13:29

Re: Pirate DVDs.

These are DVD encoded from LD.... inferior quality etc...

Also they are pressed, not copied.

and... are you sure they were DVDs and not VCDs?

zldsc

Fri 21 May 1999, 03:13

re: wildthing

They're DVDs, not encoded form LDs, but from real DVDs, I can tell the difference because I checked out a couple of them and they're exactly like the real ones with all the scence selections and interactive menus http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif

Garth Elgar

Fri 21 May 1999, 14:58

DVD has some kind of encrypted track which can be read by a player and used to decrypt other tracks, but can't be accessed directly by a pc or anything else connected to the drive. So to copy you would have to build your own dvd drive, not an easy task. plus dvd-ram wont work in most dvdrom drives. The professionally pressed pirate dvds you saw would probably have been rebuilt from dvd, they just hook up the video to an mpeg2 encoder to recode it then read off any data tracks on a pc (dvd data cant be encrypted as far as I know) etc etc and use dvd authoring tools to make it all again. The quality wouldnt suffer enough to make it noticeable.

As for Nintendos copy protection on dvd, they will probably license it from Sony ;-) heh

But its all bollocks, Nintendo are claiming that they chose carts over CDs because they are difficult to copy. This is kind of true, they chose them because they are difficult to manufacture! This means they can effectively ransom developers to pay their high cart fees. They couldnt have done this if the developers could get CDs pressed anywhere in the world.

FaKe

Sat 22 May 1999, 20:23

DC games have been copied. They are not DVD's the are GD-ROM. What this basically is, is a standard cd with different compression and different CD architecture. To copy a Dreamcast GD-Rom you need a Yamaha burner. A newer one with model numbers that begin in the seven's I think, and a special program that used to come bundled with it. You cant buy this program it only used to come bundled with the burner. So all you gotta do is find the program and get a newer Yamaha burner. I will find out more info on this soon

Qcoder

Sat 22 May 1999, 20:26

Garth Elgar: To copy a DVD, read the encrypted data from the original, and then write the exact same encrypted data to the copy. You do not need to decrypt the data to copy it.

Carts are difficult to copy? They might have thought that 3 years ago, but it's certainly not true today. Also, Sony does the same thing ripping off developers. The CDs are that special black color just so that developers can't go get them pressed anywhere (at least not without the color difference being noticable).

Goldcd

Sat 22 May 1999, 20:54

There has never and will never be a console which is piracy proof.

Playstation games are made using special hardware which adds bad sectors deliberately. A normal CD drive ignores these and so you can't write these yourself. Fitting a chip allows the Playstation to ignore the missing errors.

Dreamcast uses exactly a GD drive made I think by Hitachi. A GD drive is identical to a normal CD drive except it has the data tracks closer together and so more can be fitted onto the disk. The GD drive can read normal CDs as they are not that different. I see no reason if a dreamcast game is less than 700Mb why it couldn't be burnt to a CD if the Dreamcast was chipped. My own favourite system would be a device which connects to the firewire socket on the DC. Imagine a unit which allowed you to install a HD of your choice, you put the game in the DC, it goes onto the backup devices HD. You could then run the games directly off the HD.

The new Playstation will be pirated. It uses DVDs.These will definitely be modified from normal (Sony has the technology to do this), but once somebody develops a chip this can be overcome. The present DVD writeable disks are not compatible with todays players, but we are slowly working towards it.

Nintendo is going to be interesting, they have never been exposed to the amount of piracy the Playstation did, and also they have nowhere near the amount of technical resources as Sony or friends in the industry as Sega. Hopefully this should make it an easy target.

Goldcd

Sat 22 May 1999, 21:09

My best idea to prevent piracy (if you're listening Sony) is to use normal DVDs due to the low price, but mount it within a plastic cartridge. Built into the cartridge would be a memory chip (piss cheap) for all game saves. This would be the only way of saving the game. The contents of the disk would be encrypted, and would be decrypted by a chip in the case. Every run of production of a particular game could have a different code, no problem when you make as many games as Sony and would make patching it much harder.

Finally the most secure method would be the registration of games.
You buy the game and it comes with a code. You phone Sony, give them the code and they give another code which includes your details. This code would unlock the game. In fact games could be bought for £10 and features unlocked as desired

Garth Elgar

Mon 24 May 1999, 16:13

QCoder: If you can read the encrypted track on a DVD (I dont know..) you still won't be able to read the decryption key track. So you cant watch your copied film. As for copy protection, its not that difficult to do! For DVD they could use a special format disk that can't be written to by normal writers; it wont stop factories in China kicking out copies but it does stop normal people.. Also if Yamaha CDRs could write 1GB on a normal disk I'm sure they would use that as an advertising promotional feature.

The cost of decent encryption/authentication is falling all the time, it would be possible for Sony to make a PS that can't be chipped (the cdrom identifies the CD as being original or copied, then a secure chip inside the cdrom auths with the PS cpu, and tells it whats going on..) Neither side works unless the other is there. A system like that would be pretty cheap and very difficult to defeat, you could try copying the modified DVD/CD (need a factory...), hack the communication between the cdrom drive and cpu (modchip-like, but this would be impossible with decent crypto), or replace the cpu and cdrom/dvdrom drive completely (expensive,difficult). Its not hard for sony to make secure chips like that, look at systems like Mondex for proof. Its basically the same idea as Nintendos CIC chip, except the N64 chip doesnt seem to be very effective..

Qcoder

Mon 24 May 1999, 23:12

Garth: As for copying the encrypted tracks, true most people don't have the hardware to do this, but the guys in HK/China do. People will either buy the HK knockoffs or chip the player to read a different format.

"or replace the cpu and cdrom/dvdrom drive completely (expensive,difficult)." Read this as: "emulator". Which will happen eventually anyway. If Sony can make a system which can't be chipped, then Sony will have 2-3 years before an emulator comes out, a situation that I think they would be very happy with.

You can buy extended-capacity CDR media (so-called 80-minute discs) and most CDR drives can write them.

Goldcd: or just put a chip right in the CD itself and plate a couple of rings on the inner hub for electrical contacts. Pretty cheap and fairly effective. Sure people could chip the console, but they'd need to deal with sram managers and stuff like on the N64.

Goldcd

Mon 24 May 1999, 23:28

I don't see the putting the contacts on the CD offeres any great advantage, it is easy enough just to trim the contacts and solder on whatever mod chip system you have.
Basically the way to defeat piracy is to lock up the entire system. If you use two chips a mod can be wired between them. Use a single chip and that angle of attack is removed. Ideally you would integrate onto a single chip, a bt like a Media GX chip. Once you've created a console which cannot play pirate games you need to lock out other angles of attack. ie make sure you cannot alter the bios of the console orload up boot straps etc. Make sure there is no port on the computer which could be used to feed in data. I think putting a Firewire socket on a Dreamcast was foolish.
All the problems for pirates are usually due to variance. ie they change to layout of a PS motherboard, they use SRAM on carts, they use 2 SRAMs etc.
How about attacing piracy in a different way. Load the console with loads of piracy portection, but don't activate it. Wait until backup devices are out there, and keep on activating a new protection. Eventually the trouble and expense of overcoming all this will cause people just to buy the games. Imagine if every Z64/Doc64/CD64 was suddenly worthless. Every member of the chain from supplier to consumer would be stuck with worthless stock and a few would go under breaking up the chain.
Just an idea.

Hectic

Tue 25 May 1999, 14:01

Goldcd-Just out of curiosity, WILL the Dolphin be chip proof? Can a console even be made chip proof? What do you think? You seem pretty qualified to answer these questions. http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif

Oh yeah, thanks for the modchip offer a while ago but I got a stealth chip about 2 weeks ago.

Oxygen

Wed 26 May 1999, 03:05

humm well i know when i attempted to copy certin games forgot which ones
but the games i couldnt copy were the ones with more than 100 form transitions that pissed me off

Hectic

Fri 28 May 1999, 09:17

Aaron-I bet the games you tried to copy had additional audio tracks on them. I rented Rollcage and tried to copy it using CDRwin and the adaptec program. I think the adaptec one is the program that gave me the message about the form transexuals or whatever. Anyways, I couldn't copy it so I decided to test other games with audio tracks like Wipeout Moto racer 2. Both game me the exact same problems as Rollcage. If I used CDRwin, the program would just freeze after reading 99% of the data sectors. The thing is that the copies of Wipeout and Moto Racer 2 were ones that I had already copied. My CD rom drive has been fucked up for a long time so I hope thats the problem. http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/frown.gif

Lord of the files

Sat 5 Jun 1999, 17:44

Look, if Nintendo puts the dvd's in a 0.10$ plastic case, and uses cd-colour test (looks at the color of the readable cd face and checks it and blows itself up if it isn't a proper cd, what would HK do about that?

------------------
-c64 / Lord of the files

Qcoder

Sat 5 Jun 1999, 20:16

>How about attacing piracy in a different way. Load the console with loads of piracy
>portection, but don't activate it. Wait until backup devices are out there, and keep on
>activating a new protection. Eventually the trouble and expense of overcoming all this
>will cause people just to buy the games. Imagine if every Z64/Doc64/CD64 was suddenly
>worthless. Every member of the chain from supplier to consumer would be stuck with
>worthless stock and a few would go under breaking up the chain.
>Just an idea.

Actually Sega did something like this on the Genesis. When they released a new version of the Genesis, Atari suddenly found that their unlicenced carts wouldn't work anymore.

Goldcd

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 04:13

I don't know that much about piracy protection, I've chipped a few Playstations (well quite a few actually). Anyway... When you put a disk in the Playstation to boot it up, it first checks for the bad sectors a proper disk should have. If they are there is allows the machine to boot. A mod chip sits between the source of the signal from the CD and the processor, it blocks the signal and replaces it with an "OK" signal, the machine boots and the chip deactivates itself.
An Action Replay cart locks up the Playstation after it has checked the code off a proper disk and given the all clear, the spring allows you to swap the disks and when you then load up the game the PS thinks it is looking at the same disk (until you try to play a multi-disk game as it then looks at the next disk and spots the copy).

I'm still convinced my idea of encryption/decryption is good. Think of PGP encryption, you have a public code and a private code and can sign things. You encode the data on the disk and sign it with the official SONY code, which your Playstation expects. The code is decoded from the disk with the chip mounted in the cart (public code). Even if you could read the disk, and then read the chip to decrypt the disk data, you still couldn't patch the code and re-write it to the disk as you don't have the Sony private key. If you encrypt the code and then substitute your own decryption chip then the SONY sig will be missing.

I see no reason why Nintendo shouldn't do any of the previous, this would stop people copying games like PS and Saturn (and it seems DC).

Nintendo piracy has always been harder, usually involving a very expensive RAM cartridge which pretends to be the game cart and mixes this with the protection info from a real boot cart.

If copying the disk and using a copy is not an option the solution is going to cost more, which excludes a lot of casual pirates.

The problem of piracy is not the number of copies, but the number of people who have them. One person wouldn't have bought 200 games, 20 people might have bought 10 each. 200 copies altogether, but 10 lost sales vs 200. I've given CDR to friends, but they wouldn't have bought a Dr64.

The best protection is just to make it financially unviable for 99% of Dolphin users pirate and just write off the 1% of hardcore (that's us).

The N64 is on the way out, I never saw the charm of the Gameboy (apart from Tetris and Zelda). When these are gone Bung is fucked unless it can come up with something.
I can honestly say that I can see the day coming rapidly when there will be virtually no piracy on consoles.

Finally for a cheap form of protection just use a different wavelength of laser. I have a DVD player which reads DVDs, normal CDs, but not CDR. It does however read CDRW as their wavelength is closer to the single laser it has. My stereo and Playstation cannot read CDRW disks but can read CDR (stereo doesn't like some). Therefore if you imagine a spectrum it goes DVD-->CDRW--->Normal CD---->CDR. The single laser in the DVD can't quite span the whole range. Make a console that has a laser wavelength completely different (There's something about blue lasers being able to read closer packed info as well if any added incentive were needed).

Just thoughts and probably wrong.

Goldcd

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 04:15

Oh and the "black" plastic Sony disks are made from makes no difference at all, purely cosmetic. (play the music tracks on your stereo)Mind you is it my imagination or are Sony PS disks a lot tougher than normal? Is the music industry screwing us over with disks that get scratched to buggery. (Just destroyed another of my CDs http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/frown.gif

Hectic

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 08:22

The PSX discs I think are softer than normal cds and that's why they don't scratch as easially. Or it might all be an illusion, the color makes it harder to see the scratches. Also, the PSX cds aren't black, they're purple.

WheretheBudat? http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif

rene

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 14:20

I can´t stand this mourning how expensive games are anymore.
you get a high end console which has more power than some workstation for the 1/3 price of a cheap PC.
what else do you want ??? obviously game companies don´t make money from the console, but from licensing fees. so it´s quite natural that games are not that cheap because no company wants to pay money for selling their products (game programmers want to earn some money, too, you know).
if you don´t want to afford expensive games than buy some used ones or wait until you have enough money until there´s a game you REALLY want.
i bet you guys have 200 PSX cds and played only a few of them.
i´m fully aware of the fact that the psx is not a big sell because of the advanced hardware, but just because you can copy your games easily. nintendo carts are a bit harder to get (and you need additional "expensive" hardware, at least this costs more than a pack CDRs).
i don´t know if you guys know how much effort is to be put into a game ???? you barely get rich as a programmer (not as when you´re doing database programming and get well paid for boring jobs).
do you guys want to pay more for the console ?? do you actually want to pay exactly the amount that it´s worth ????
i doubt that.
i don´t condone pirating, since it certainly helps to make a system what it is.
but this is not like in the good old days, where you copied your stuff and bought the things you really like.
having a console and not buying originals and mourning at the same time how expensive those are doesn´t help at all. if you guys would buy some games they surely would be cheaper.
just my 2 cents,
rene_

PS: and stop saying "we can bust the protection".
i doubt that any of you guys could deprotect this, since this is a bit harder than just using CDR-Win or PSX-Copy and soldering a chip inside where none of you knows how it works.

[This message has been edited by rene (edited 06-06-99).]

[This message has been edited by rene (edited 06-06-99).]

Hectic

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 14:28

You don't condone piracy eh? Why would you come to a site that is only about piracy than? I'm guessing that you are a video game developer or else you wouldn't feel so strongly about the issue.

Hectic

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 14:35

Well I guess you are a developer because I just read your profile. I guess I understand where you're coming from, but don't talk shit saying that no one knows how anything works. There are a lot of smart people that come to this forum (i'm not one of them) and you don't know what they do and do not know. We're all used to getting every game for free so of course we're gonna want to do the same with PSX2 and Dolphin. http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif

rene

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 14:48

well, you forgot, that most developers have a certain background, as well.
you don´t get born as a game developer. before you are involved into game developing you surely checked out how some things work http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif.
and i really don´t condone piracy, it just depends on how you see the pirating stuff. if you pirate games to check out if it´s worth the money i surely don´t have a problem with this. it´s this collectors mania which i think ruins the industry. as i stated, owning 200 cds without an original isn´t a wise decision.
dot, period,
rene_

rene

Sun 6 Jun 1999, 15:21

oops, i think i mixed up "to condone" and "to condemn" http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif, sorry for that.
rene_

^Roms^

Wed 16 Jun 1999, 03:17

While i agree with you on the roms "collectors", it's a bit harder for us PAL people who have to wait months for the releases to hit our shores. Another thing is that some games from Japan have features that are missing in our versions here (which bites).

There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding whether DC games can be copied, anyone care to set the record straight? Not that it would interest me since it will be the end of the year before it is god damn released here in Australia.

With regards to extended cd-r media, the best and most reliable true 700mb/80min cdr i found was the Exacts (www.trojan.com.au).

Goldcd: great idea with the new updates of backup machines, that sort of reminds me of the SNES days when they didn't have flash bioses.. i ended up buying at least 3 DoctorFamicons and i think they went up to ver. 7? .. which brings me to another question: why didn't Bung put in a game cheat finder and the ability to load multiple games in spare slots like the old SNES doc units??

Cheers,
May the Roms be with you.. always \(^.^)/

Goldcd

Wed 16 Jun 1999, 15:06

OK You've found me out. I have a good few hundred games and I only play a few of them, big deal. Some of those are games which i really wanted, Tekken3, GT, Silent Hill, Metal Gear Solid etc. They were all out in Japan long before over here in the UK and I took great pleasure in playing them before anybody else. (although I didn't have a clue what was going on in MGS). There are also games which I got and love which I would never have dreamt of buying, SF Zero3, Einhander (did that make it to the UK?) and many others.
Your argument about buying the games you like and copying the ones you don't isn't too good as piracy is piracy. I do have to admit though i've bought the odd game such as GTA as I'd played a demo and couldn't wait to get my hands on it. Oh and Half-life to get a proper code to play multiplayer.

tWiSt

Thu 17 Jun 1999, 22:47

Rene,

I've been copying games since the halycon golden age of the good old Commodore 16. I've went through all computers, and consoles. I've been involved in the cracking/coding/trading scene since the age of 12, and I've lost count of the number of times a new system was coming out that was said to 'eliminate piracy'.

There are people out there who have been involved in cracking since day dot and are still doing it. These people have a PHENOMENAL amount of both hard and software knowledge behind them, and I'm quite serious when I say I know some who's LIFE WORK it is to crack the hardest copy protection hardware/software they can get their hands on.

Personally I own around 100 ROMS for my Ultra64, and 10 carts. The carts are the games I thought were truly worth buying...Zelda, Mario, Goldeneye, Mariokart, and a few others. I'm a firm believer in buying a game if it's worth it...at the moment I'm looking forward to Shadowman, Perfect Dark, Jet Force Gemini, Resident Eveil, and a few others. I will download these games from the net first. If I don't like it I won't buy it. If I do, I'll go to the shops and buy it to support that company in order for them to produce more games of a similiar high quality.

The computer underground, wether you condone piracy or not, is the last bastion of true hardcore avante-garde 'for-the-kix' coding out there. Seen??

peace,
tWiSt

Berzerker

Fri 18 Jun 1999, 06:43

http://www.surfsolutions.com/cdrinfo/reviews/dreamcast/index.html

you might be interested in that, dont know if this is a well-known page or not. sorry if it is. see ya.

Goldcd

Sat 19 Jun 1999, 10:20

That entire page is a load of bollocks.

You can't just get rid of sector information, it's there so the Dreamcast can find the data it needs. You can enlarge sectors where there is one large file to fit more on (eg VCDs)
If you look at the bottom of a CDR disks there's only about 2mm of free space on the inside.
CAV (constant angular velocity) where a disk spins at the same speed, max data read on the outside of the disk, min on the inside. It is faster than normal disks as when the head moves it doesn't have to wait for the speed of the disk to be adjusted.
If Yamaha drives could write more to a disk they'd let us know.
The CeQuadrat packet drivers only create more "space" by having compression built into them.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

sven

Sat 19 Jun 1999, 14:32

Yo this is what I think we should do:
open up a whole new section for the Dolphin because this is getting way too long.
heh

rene

Sun 20 Jun 1999, 00:44

to twist:
well, we have both in common we somehow started "scening" very early (you at the age of 12, me 12 years ago).
see, i don´t condemn (i already wrote that i mixed it up with condone, but as english is not my mother tongue i´m allowed to make some mistakes) copying since i know that a hardware will only sell if there´s a possibility to copy programs for it and therefore people will only buy software for a hardware that sells good (is there a backup unit for the jaggy ???).
and regarding this cracking stuff: i´m a firm believer in fravia´s site (i suppose you know this) and some things are not unknown to me. as i stated, there was a life before developing (and sometimes still is http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif). and if you are buying games you don´t have to feel offended anyway http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif.
besides, the only reason i started this chit-chatting was, because someone complained how expensive these games are. they have to be, since people don´t buy enough. you don´t get rich as a developer (unless you are programming Quake1-10000, which is a "bit" overhyped in my opinion regarding the gameplay) and you don´t want to starve, just because nobody buyed your game (although most people have it).
kind regards,
rene_

nemesis112

Thu 24 Jun 1999, 12:53

I don't think your ever gonna stop the piracy at the console side. Anyone commited enough is going to be able to make a crack, even for a disc with a mounted chip.

The only way to stop piracy is to make the media completely uncopyable. This is what Sega has thus far achieved (regardless of what the people who claimed to have copied a DC game say) and what Nintendo are hoping to achieve with a proprietary format of DVD.

------------------
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening

Goldcd

Mon 5 Jul 1999, 20:56

The Dreamcast isn't going to be "unhackable" just because there is a prop format drive. I can't see any reason why somebody couldn't develop a Dreamcast to PC Firewire linkup and then just write a program which dumps the PC.
If people really wanted to reduce piracy they should combine serious protection with a low price for games. I have a CD writer and still buy music CDs, why? Well because if it's a CD I want I'm happy to pay 12 pounds for it. I get a nice CD with proper packaging and a warm fuzzy glow.
On the other hand I only bought a Playstation when I bought a CDR for my PC.
If you have a look at Lik-Sangs site the Dreamcast games retail for around 20-25 pounds (the cost of 1-2 music CDs). If Sega, when they launch the DC in Europe sold the game for this price then I would go out and buy one even if it did prove to be backup proof.

Naturally they won't sell the games for this price and I won't be buying a DC at it's launch, Sega's loss.

I was thinking how much money I had spent buying my Dr64 and assorted bits, works out around £250. I then worked out how many games were worth buying for the N64. Although I have a load of games, there's only a dozen or so which I would actually have bought, the rest are treated as demos, looked at and left. If the carts had been £20 each, and I had been wise in my buying I think I would actually have bought them on cart rather than buying a Dr as it would be a lot easier to save etc.

So here's my formula for Dreamcast success. Sell the games for 20-25 pounds and don't release the normal piles of shit games which we have to wade through to find the gems.

Darkflame

Thu 8 Jul 1999, 12:39

Nah just encrypt the media (dvd, cd whatever) and for each game just put a little holographic bar code that contains the encryption key which contains the information to decrypt the disc...this way, when the disc spins up, the laser can go pass the physical area of the data tracks and scan the bar code which gives the decryption to unlock the disc, this way, even if you developed a chip to overcome this, youd still need to input the keys manually, and then you would need a program that responded to your clicks that could talk directly to the chip which makes it way much more complicated than it is......and more expensive no?.......hehe

Hectic

Thu 8 Jul 1999, 15:16

Damn this topic's long...good topic though.

http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/frown.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/frown.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/frown.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/frown.gif http://www.dextrose.com/ubb/redface.gif

Goldcd

Wed 21 Jul 1999, 20:17

I don't see the point in a holographic barcode. Firstly can you read a hologram? The point of it being holographic is?? Anyway you'd need a separate laser to read the barcode, you don't play CDs at the supermarket checkout.
To get around this you'd just use a mod chip. You'd get a crc for each CD to identify each game and match it to the correct decryption code. The codes could then be stored on a memory cart or the like.

Just like to mention Sony dropping the prices of games to £30. (plus whatever discount you can get.) Hopefully this is the dawn of low price games and not just an attempt to saturate the market before the lauch of the Dreamcast.

Qcoder

Thu 22 Jul 1999, 00:07

A hologram is the three-dimentional image created by the diffraction pattern produced by the finely spaced lines. To copy it accurately, you'd need an ultraviolet laser or an electron microscope. But like you said, most people will just use a modchip which produces the expected electronic signals.

nemesis112

Thu 22 Jul 1999, 13:40

Well, it appears that the Dreamcast isn't far away from being cracked. NCS is currently developing a mod chip that allows you to run DVD-R discs. And an unspecified source has developed a piece of software that allows PC owners to dump all of the readable sections onto DVD-R.

------------------
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening

Goldcd

Sun 25 Jul 1999, 04:19

My point with the holograms is that although I know it's virtually impossible to copy them and they can be used to identify genuine product to a person, can they be read and used as identification by an electronic reading device?

hastypete

Mon 26 Jul 1999, 19:24

Please, please, please.
Close this topic.

Goldcd

Tue 27 Jul 1999, 02:46

Well don't read it if you don't want it.

nemesis112

Tue 27 Jul 1999, 09:52

Well, in theory they can be read. They are just lines scorched into a piece of material. So it should be possible.

------------------
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening

Hectic

Tue 27 Jul 1999, 12:46

maybe we could get this up to 100 posts?

Mr.Mucho Romz

Tue 27 Jul 1999, 21:19

perhaps we will......

/MMR

Mr. GoldenEye

Wed 28 Jul 1999, 03:04

Just one thing about copying games:

I remember that many many magazines and software developers said that if the cd-rom media comes out (for PC-Games), the games are going to be cheaper. In the first 2 years (more or less) cd-rom games couldn't be copied by a majority of the people. Even though, the prices where the same.

So I am quiet angry with the software companies and don't want to get f****d by them anymore, and that's why I am copying games.

Even though, I support the idea of downloading a game from the net and buying it if it's real worth the money.

Qcoder

Wed 28 Jul 1999, 04:56

Well, consider that most PSX games are $20-30 and N64 games are $40-50. So in some cases the CD games are cheaper. But still those cds cost less than a dollar to make.

I was going to buy Shadowgate 64 until I saw the retail price of $65!!! What a rip off. Guess how I got it instead.

At least Sony indirectly makes money from people who copy the games because they often rent them and thereby encourage the rental shops to buy more, but big N doesn't get any money. Well, I guess they get to sell one game as a boot cart...

COM

Thu 29 Jul 1999, 09:31

Nintendo really doesn't have much of a piracy problem. Despite the lower popularity of the N64, Nintendo is the one getting rich off software sales, not Sony.

You can bet that Sony will put in some serious copy protection into Psx2. Then it will be surprised that its hardware sales aren't very good.

Goldcd

Fri 30 Jul 1999, 02:35

Why?

Da Ranxta

Fri 30 Jul 1999, 03:12

PSX2 sales should be OK and this is coming from a partisan Nintendo fan. While the console isn't as good as Dolphin on paper, Sony have made a huge leap over Nintendo in reputation for software. The NES sold honourably even when the Mega Drive went on sale purely on Nintendo's reputaion for quality games. While Nintendo still unqustionably make the best games, they are no longer the most popular games as Sony has capitalised on the post-Mortal Kombat bloodlust amongst most gamers, and this has led to the Nintendo stereotype of being for kiddies, alienating the huge teen market. Also, if the PSX2 beats Dolphin coming out by as large a gap as last time, it well sell far too well, leading to fickle publishers turning their backs on the big N a la Square.

COM

Fri 30 Jul 1999, 04:10

Sony gets a lot of hardware sales because of the ease of copying games. If you doubt it, just look at the very popular white Asian psx which plays VCDs. Sony knows very well that almost no one buys legitimate VCDs. If Dreamcast could be copied as easy as PSX, I have no doubt that it would have sold twice the units in Japan. Maybe Sega should take that into consideration if they survive long enough to make another console. Sure they wouldn't be getting more software sales, but the strong installed base would attract more 3rd party developers, and frankly, I think Nintendo is the only company that can survive on 1st and 2nd party development.

racerx

Wed 4 Aug 1999, 17:34

DC games can be copied. Just head over to www.erkay.de (http://www.erkay.de) and check out the dream cast section. The yamaha 400I cdburner and cequadrant's quick cd software will do it

Opium

Thu 5 Aug 1999, 08:53

Since the PSY will use the PSX chips for its In Out controler, wouldnt that allow an open place for a PSYModChip? I mean, doesnt the IO control the DVD drive? just a thought

_kid

Thu 5 Aug 1999, 20:33

> DC games can be copied.
It does not seem so...

> Just head over to www.erkay.de (http://www.erkay.de) and check out
> the dream cast section. The yamaha 400I cdburner and cequadrant's
> quick cd software will do it
For your information: the CDR disks do come PREGROOVED this means the
disk has a track pre-etched on it (why would they build 80min CDRS
and 74mins?); you can exceed the nominal size of the disk only by a
small amount (10-50 megs but it's mostly random). 1G is 300 megs
more... Assuming the GDROM writer is really a more or less standard
cdr writer, you need atleast custom grooved disks.
Regarding the CEQuadrat software, all it does is to attempt to
software compress the content of the disk...

After all the article seems (atleast half of it) pure bollocks...

Goldcd

Thu 12 Aug 1999, 00:50

If it was possible to copy DC games we'd all be doing it. Until somebody shows me it happening I'm not going to believe them.

COM

Thu 12 Aug 1999, 09:06

Yeah, as if size was the only thing stopping people from copying DC games. Think about it. There are lots of DC games out, do you think all of them use more than 650 megs? If size was the only obstacle in copying DC games, then there would be copies of smaller sized games available already, right? I can't believe that some people believe everything they read on the internet.

chalmo

Sun 18 May 2003, 18:00

Well I just finished reading this lengthy thread and definitely thought it worthwhile bumping it. Very interesting discussion and it seems that back in the day these guys knew more then than we do now, quite sad really. It also seems as if Nintendo, Sony and M$ have used this thread as a guide to protecting their consoles, two failed, unfortunately one did/has not... I still think that we will see GC's successor before the Cube is cracked. A rather pessimistic viewpoint but pessimism is the seed of motivation, if I say it can't be done, someone will try and prove me wrong.

Oh and make sure you read from the beginning, the best stuff is at the start IMO.